Conlang relay [relocated] (aka "The Cursed Relay")

TzirTzi · Post by **TzirTzi** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:17 am

Those look good - while being contemporary and 2000 years post-split I think they could have changed more, I don't think they seem unrealistically unchanged. Different languages change at very different rates, after all.

A wiki is now available at http://superlush.co.uk/~akana/. Still working on getting the subdomain akana.superlush.co.uk working. Will install the Charinsert extension later today.

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:10 am

TzirTzi wrote:A wiki is now available at http://superlush.co.uk/~akana/

This is great, thank you!

Now we need to do the configuration and get the content up. I have a full copy of the articles as they were when the KQ went down, updated to include the changes made on FrathWiki over the last weeks. If you give me sysop rights I can import the data. IMO it would be best anyway to give such rights to all of the core team so we can do the configurational work collectively. Once all the relevant people have signed up, I'd recommend to request authorization for new users, but we can probably decide that later.

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:35 am

Tzirtzi, I cannot thank you enough for your help with hosting. It is truly taking a burden off our backs!

:bows in gratitude:

Another giant thank-you goes as well to cedh audmanh - your foresight in backing up all the Akana articles has saved our collective bacon.

:another bow:

TzirTzi · Post by **TzirTzi** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:02 am

I've PMed the admin login details to Zhen Lin, Corumayas, cedh, and Radius. Who else should I send it to?

Requiring authorization from new users once the current people have signed up sounds like a good plan. I'll also turn off editing by non-users.

Just looking into getting that extension now, although it appears that the problem I had in downloading from mediawiki is specific to my computer (I downloaded and installed the wiki itself from elsewhere), so that may have to wait until I can use someone else's.

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:05 am

cedh audmanh wrote:
TzirTzi wrote:A wiki is now available at http://superlush.co.uk/~akana/
This is great, thank you!

Now we need to do the configuration and get the content up. I have a full copy of the articles as they were when the KQ went down, updated to include the changes made on FrathWiki over the last weeks. If you give me sysop rights I can import the data.

Done.

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:06 am

The articles are up. Go team!

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:14 am

Your normal account is also empowered, so it wasn't necessary to use the admin account.

TzirTzi · Post by **TzirTzi** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:58 pm

The subdomain is now working!

The wiki is now accessible from: www.akana.superlush.co.uk.

I've modified the Takuna grammar I was working on to be Proto-Nualis-Takuna. I've started to create a page for it.

Once I've got that a bit further, either I or others can derive Nualis and Takuna, and then I (or others) can start to derive a daughter of Mûtsipsa' appropriately influenced.

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:42 pm

Awesome, awesome, awesome! Go Team!

And, my contribution, if you like it: a logo for the wiki.

Changes to it can be made if desired.

I tried to symbolize several things: the diversity of languages now represented in the conworld (thesis), contrasting with the clear relationship between the names via the Edastean family (antithesis), the two coming together in our focus on diachronics and our teamwork of individuals to create a whole (synthesis). If that's not too hi-falutin' for everyone.

TzirTzi · Post by **TzirTzi** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:07 pm

Excellent stuff!

I have taken the liberty of uploading it and changing the logo, I hope that's cool with all.

dunomapuka · Post by **dunomapuka** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:53 pm

Yay! Two of my languages made it into the logo. Assuming Ndok Aisô counts as "my" language. <b>Ngkadeu</b> is definitely my word, anyway.

Zhen Lin · Post by **Zhen Lin** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:58 pm

It's visually appealing and symbolically interesting!

TzirTzi · Post by **TzirTzi** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:51 pm

Proto-Nualis-Takuna is well on the way. In case anyone is interested, the file so far can be seen at www.superlush.co.uk/PNT.pdf - I'd appreciate any comments/criticism that people have!

The main things left to do are expand the lexicon and expand some of the syntax section.

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:02 am

Looks very very good so far. A couple of comments:

- I find it a bit strange that the morphophonological Nasalization process turns /s/ into [n], but not /4/ which has a common prenasalized allophone. I'd personally swap these two (that is, the fricative would be immune to Nasalization, while the tap would mutate). Or is there some historical reasoning behind this?

- For the infixing possession markers, could you list an example where the first lexical syllable contains a diphthong? Am I right in assuming that a word like taisaku would have a close 1st person possessed form tukaisaku and a distant 1st person possessed form tuisaku?

- In the paragraph listing the examples for this, you have the same typo twice: "for" where it should say "form".

- I absolutely love the positionality marking on the verbs! Great idea, and well-done AFAICT!

- What's the matter with the auxiliaries pani and sajsía' which are not associated to a verbal class? Can they be used with any participle verb?

TzirTzi · Post by **TzirTzi** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:14 am

Thanks very much for reading it through!

That's a good point about s/r - I will indeed swap those around.

You are correct about possession marking on stems with diphthongs in the initial syllable - I'll add some examples to make it clear.

Thanks for pointing out the typos, I'll correct those.

I'm glad you like the positionality

. I have to admit I am blundering in the dark a bit when it comes to it - there's very little information available that I've been able to find. But I've made it as realistic as possible (with semantic extensions etc.) based on general linguistic knowledge.

Well, firstly the auxiliaries are true verbs first and auxiliaries second - they can be used alone, without auxiliaries, where participle verbs can't. Secondly, I was considering giving those two some more specific meanings as auxiliaries ... But I'm not yet quite sure what I mean by that!

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:58 pm

I have noticed that the languages of Akana, or at least the dates of their descriptions, tend to cluster into generations spanning around 1500-2000 years. So, I thought I'd try to provide a labeling system for this, because it may be useful when referring to time periods instead of having to clunk around with random terms like "Classical period".

Generation -1: -4000 to -3500 YP
* Proto-Macro-Edastean
* Proto-Western
* Proto-Eige-Isthmus
* Ngauro

Generation 0: -2000 to -1800 YP
* Ndak Ta
* Ferogh languages
* Gezoro
* Proto-Isles

Generation 1: 1 to 300 YP
* Faralo, Adata, Naidda, Ndok Aiso, Qedik
* Isles languages
* Tlaliolz
* Doroh

Generation 1.5: 800 to 1100 YP
* Namidu
* Aedhade
* Athata
* Kozado
* Mavakhalan
* Pencek
* Puoni

Generation 2: c. 1600 YP
* language of Wi'makwa
* Ayasthi
* Yad
* E'at

After Generation 2 there aren't really enough languages to talk about well-defined clusters.

TzirTzi · Post by **TzirTzi** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:07 pm

While it seems a very good idea to have a defined set of periods, what about naming them so as to make them easier/nicer to refer to? "classical period" may be (at the moment) not very specific or clear, but it is nicer to use than "generation 1".

So for example -

Generation -1: Prehistoric period
Generation 0: Ancient period
Generation 1: Early classical period
Generation 1.5: Late classical period
Generation 2: ...something appropriate to this period.

Or not

.

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:34 pm

Standardizing names works too.

Meanwhile, updated maps of Kasca:

Corumayas · Post by **Corumayas** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:19 pm

The new wiki is brilliant! Thanks again for setting it up, TzirTzi. And thanks to cedh for saving and importing the files, and to Radius for the spiffy logo. Go team! Hopefully Akana has found its permanent home this time.

Radius's chronology reminds me that I had some thoughts about dates for the Eige-Isthmus langs I wanted to run by y'all (this turned out kind of wordy, but bear with me...):

-The Ngauro civilization is said to date from about -4000 YP, so I think the split between Ngauro and Miwan has to happen at that date at the latest. And Proto-Eige-Isthmus needs to be before that. It's also said that Ngauro is much closer to Miwan than to the Ferogh langs, so I think there should be a significant chunk of time between PEI and Proto-Eige Valley (the last common ancestor of Ngauro and Miwan).

So I've been tentatively thinking PEV ca -4000, and PEI ca -5000 or even before... but according to Radius' list that makes it much earlier than Proto-Macro-Edastean, which is said to be too far back to be confidently reconstructed. I'm not sure how much this is a problem.

-Proto-Isthmus is already fixed at ca -3000, and just for convenience I've set Proto-Miwan at roughly the same period... though it could easily be several hundred years earlier or later. I see Miwan as originating in a dialect (or group of dialects) from the forests just south of Kasadgad, whose speakers spread up the Aiwa sometime before the Ndak expansion took off.

-Ngauro writing wouldn't be fully developed until the civilization has been around for a while-- maybe beginning around -3000, which would make it about contemporary with Proto-Isthmus and Proto-Miwan. The climax of Ngauro civilization seems to be around -2400, when they controlled Latsomo for a short time.

-Faraghin as we know it must date from the period -1400-1000; after that, as I understand it, the Faraghin have all become Faralo. Ferajin, as described on the Wiki, could be a little later-- maybe around -800, just before the Faralo started expanding into Ferajin territory? I'm thinking that after that Ferajin would show steadily increasing Faralo influence. (It looks like Doroh is either from around the same period as this early Ferajin, or is later but much more conservative in its changes.)

-That suggests that Proto-Ferogh is a few hundred years before Faraghin... so maybe about contemporary with Ndak Ta... but if so, there's an issue with the NT word for "goat", kwir, which is supposed to be a loan from Faraghin xoir: in Proto-Ferogh I think it was xair, not such a likely source. So maybe that chronology needs some adjustment.

-Western Isthmus and Eastern Isthmus in any case must date to the mid -2000s.

-The known Miwan langs have dates (or date ranges) attached to them already-- all of which are at long after Proto-Miwan (the earliest is Old Eastern Miwan, from around -100). The Meshi had a nomadic empire in the Aiwa Valley around -1100-900, so their language might have been used for inscriptions in that period-- if so, it'd likely be the first Miwan lang to be written. If and when we get a halfway decent description of Proto-Miwan together, someone could do Meshi.

dunomapuka · Post by **dunomapuka** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:20 pm

Corumayas wrote: -The Ngauro civilization is said to date from about -4000 YP, so I think the split between Ngauro and Miwan has to happen at that date at the latest. And Proto-Eige-Isthmus needs to be before that. It's also said that Ngauro is much closer to Miwan than to the Ferogh langs, so I think there should be a significant chunk of time between PEI and Proto-Eige Valley (the last common ancestor of Ngauro and Miwan).

So I've been tentatively thinking PEV ca -4000, and PEI ca -5000 or even before... but according to Radius' list that makes it much earlier than Proto-Macro-Edastean, which is said to be too far back to be confidently reconstructed. I'm not sure how much this is a problem.

My solution: the -4000 date is marked as the beginning of "Ngauro" civilization as such because that's when they first appear in the archaeological record. But at this early point, they need not be differentiated linguistically from their various Eige Valley cousins. The Ngauro are just the subgroup that happened to invent cities. So essentially for a while the early Ngauro are speaking something that is indistinguishable from Proto-Eige, we just call this period "early Ngauro" as a matter of convention.

I'm beginning to get curious what the Ngauro autonym is -- maybe it's something related to "Kasadgad."

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 4:05 am

That was immediately what I thought when I started reading Corumayas' post: well maybe the earliest Ngauro language was a dialect PEI itself. I know we have some of those old things that got said, like Ngauro being closer to Miwan, but really some of these are changeable or reinterpretable. So... let me propose this slightly adjusted timeline:

-4000:
PEI is spoken along the lower-middle Aiwa, and has a northern and a southern dialect; speakers of southern dialect are the earliest "Ngauro" known from archeology.

-3700:
Early "Ngauro" people start conquering everything in sight, driving many of their northern cousins to emigrate up into the Isthmus region. Those remaining are absorbed back into the Ngauro.

-3000:
* The southern group's language has become entrenched over the whole lower Aiwa and has now developed some internal variation, but remains a single language - which we call proto-Eige-Valley.
* At the same time the northern splinter group's language has become proto-Isthmus.

-2600:
* Proto-Isthmus has developed distinct Eastern and Western varieties, but mutual influence between them has not necessarily ceased yet.

-2400:
* PEV has diverged into two closely related sister languages. One, which we can call Ngauro proper, is spoken along the lower Aiwa and the lands immediately north of it, by the more civilized and imperial folks there.
* The other is spoken by their less civilized relatives south of the river left behind from prior waves of invasion, and constitutes Proto-Miwan. These people are still culturally dominated by the Ngauro at this time and some linguistic influences from Ngauro continue to occur.
* Western Isthmus speakers invade and settle the Oltu valley and the hills north and east of it. This is roughly contemporary with the pronominal mergers in W-I. The W-I speakers north of the mountains tolerate the mergers, while those south of it develop new pronominal morphology. The latter variety thus constitutes pre-Proto-Ferogh.

-2200:
* A number of new sound changes occur quickly in pPF, perhaps due to contact with pre-existing languages in their new home, rendering Proto-Ferogh.
* By this time the PF speakers have split into two tribes, later known as Faraghin and Ferajin, but their speech hasn't diverged yet.

-2000:
* Dialect of the early Faraghin tribe has already experienced the ai > oi sound change, followed soon thereafter by the loaning of this word into the rapidly expanding Ndak Ta to the south.

Another consideration: PEI is more reconstructible than Proto-Macro-Edastean despite dating from the same era because the Ngauro had writing far earlier than any Macro-Edastean people did. The PEV "Ngauro" language should be amply attested from at least -3000 via the clay tablets they left behind, while five hundred years later, Proto-Talo-Edastean is still attestable only from a handful of incompletely deciphered runic inscriptions. Plus, the age of PME could well be older than the -3500 sometimes mentioned: that's more of an upper bound than a real date. It could have been -4500 or even -5000. Proto-Habeo is really quite different from Talo-Edastean (e.g. ten-morpheme verb structures in PH vs. nearly-isolating NT).

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:38 am

This chronology looks good to me.

Radius Solis wrote:-2200:
* A number of new sound changes occur quickly in pPF, perhaps due to contact with pre-existing languages in their new home

These could well be northern dialects of Ngauro... which would provide us with a good scenario for a little sprachbunding. Or maybe some early Tlaliolz, although I don't think they would really have spread to the Oltu that soon. But there should still be good opportunity for some Tlaliolz<>Faraghin borrowing in the millennium after this.

Post by **zompist** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:27 pm

Radius Solis wrote:-3700:
Early "Ngauro" people start conquering everything in sight, driving many of their northern cousins to emigrate up into the Isthmus region. Those remaining are absorbed back into the Ngauro.

This seems pretty early for an empire. On Earth the kingdom stage lasted for a few milennia after agriculture/writing/states developed.

If they were the only agriculturalists, the resulting population explosion would be enough for them to take over the whole Aiwa.

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:43 pm

Good catch. Hmm. It needn't actually be war... what about just expanding rapidly? Other surrounding peoples are presumably agriculturalist too, yes, but perhaps the Ngauro discovered or invented something around this time that allowed substantial expansion but not as dramatic as suddenly overrunning the whole valley.

What about the wheel? If we say that pack animals had been used for millennia already, but wheeled carts weren't known until the early Ngauro days, that would give them a big edge - but would it be too big? Previously they could probably move up and down the lower Aiwa fairly easily, as it's probably pretty sluggish for the lowest 500 miles or so. But if the wheel then allowed them to expand north and south and exert closer control over some of those areas than would otherwise be possible... combined with greater ability to bring food into the cities, allowing them to increase in population... then it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that this could result in immediate neighbors getting shoved out of the way. How does this sound?

If we're still lacking for a reason the wheel advantage didn't let them cover the entire Aiwa valley, we can at least fall back on the possibility that at this early date they were blocked by the primeval forest cover. There was already plenty of good clear land on the lower river, and without a good reason to build roads it'd have been harder to get through the forested upriver lands with a cart than without, so the advantage would basically have been neutralized everywhere the grass stopped.

krinnen · Post by **krinnen** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 3:14 pm

While there are some who posit an independent development, I believe the most accepted theory has the wheel evolving from the pottery wheel.

Not that there's anything wrong with the (cart)wheel developing on its own, but I believe it would be more likely given certain conditions, i.e. a flat terrain, (dry)roads, a trade-based economy...

On the other hand, take a look at the American empires, where the wheel wasn't known...