Making oldlike

Drydic · Post by **Drydic** » Thu May 19, 2011 2:04 am

I was going to put this in the random thread but I may get more bites here.

Today I learned that there is no verb archarize in English, but a verb archaize. I've only ever heard [ˈɑɹ.kʰə.ɹaɪz] or possibly [ˈɑɹ.kʰɚ.ɹaɪz]. I'm a native rhotic dialect speaker so it's not that intrusive-r-in-a-hiatus-situation-thing that nonrhotic dialects seem to always have.

Am I crazy or is something rotten in Denmark?

tezcatlip0ca · Post by **tezcatlip0ca** » Thu May 19, 2011 2:07 am

I say /"A:r\keI%aIz/.

Nortaneous · Post by **Nortaneous** » Thu May 19, 2011 3:19 am

going by what dictionary.com says, i'd guess it's supposed to be [ˈaɹkiai̯z]

Risla · Post by **Risla** » Thu May 19, 2011 9:50 am

What the fuck? I've never heard of "archaize." I've always heard "archaicize" /ɑrˈkeɪ.ɪ.saɪz/ but the dictionary says that doesn't exist.

linguoboy · Post by **linguoboy** » Thu May 19, 2011 10:20 am

Risla wrote:What the fuck? I've never heard of "archaize." I've always heard "archaicize" /ɑrˈkeɪ.ɪ.saɪz/ but the dictionary says that doesn't exist.

WHS. Anglicism : anglicise :: archaicism : archaise.

Astraios · Post by **Astraios** » Thu May 19, 2011 10:26 am

linguoboy wrote:archaicism

?

Or did I miss something?

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Thu May 19, 2011 10:26 am

linguoboy wrote:
Risla wrote:What the fuck? I've never heard of "archaize." I've always heard "archaicize" /ɑrˈkeɪ.ɪ.saɪz/ but the dictionary says that doesn't exist.
WHS. Anglicism : anglicise :: archaicism : archaise.

Except the word is "archaism".

Risla · Post by **Risla** » Thu May 19, 2011 10:29 am

FWIW, I have "archaicism" too. "Archaism" sounds wrong to me.

linguoboy · Post by **linguoboy** » Thu May 19, 2011 10:34 am

Legion wrote:
linguoboy wrote:
Risla wrote:What the fuck? I've never heard of "archaize." I've always heard "archaicize" /ɑrˈkeɪ.ɪ.saɪz/ but the dictionary says that doesn't exist.
WHS. Anglicism : anglicise :: archaicism : archaise.
Except the word is "archaism".

The OED lists both. BOOYAH!

Astraios · Post by **Astraios** » Thu May 19, 2011 10:36 am

linguoboy wrote:The OED lists both. BOOYAH!

An americanism then?

linguoboy · Post by **linguoboy** » Thu May 19, 2011 10:41 am

Astraios wrote:
linguoboy wrote:The OED lists both. BOOYAH!
An americanism then?

Nope. One of the citations is from the Daily Telegraph and the other is from the London-based Quarterly Review.

spats · Post by **spats** » Thu May 19, 2011 12:15 pm

The magic of back-formation. The original word:

Archaic (AmE /arke(j)Ik/)

(Note that the last vowel could be interpreted as /@/, realized as [1].)

The "correct" formations:

Archaism (AmE /arke(j)Ism/)
*Archaize (AmE /arke(j)aIz/)

Because of the odd hiatuses, it may be easier for some speakers to take "archaic" and just add the -ism and (especially) -ize endings:

*Archaicism (AmE /arke(j)@sizm/)
Archaicize (AmE /arke(j)@saIz/)

I think people would still prefer "Archaism" because the hiatus is less weird/more like the original word. Also, it's a word they're more likely to have seen in print. But "archaicize" is much easier than "archaize" to my tongue.

Salmoneus · Post by **Salmoneus** » Thu May 19, 2011 12:33 pm

Archaism and archaize are all I know and have heard. "Archaicism" sounds more like it means a style than a particular item, and in any case sounds very... not illiterate, but certaintly agricultural (in the sense of a tackle, not the sense of farming).

"Archarise" is just weird.

Viktor77 · Post by **Viktor77** » Thu May 19, 2011 12:36 pm

I can't even pronounce "archaicism" without trouble. "Archaism" is the norm in my corner of the midwest (though perhaps not Linguoboy's). "Archaize" would be the verb. "Archaicise" is absurd.

Legion · Post by **Legion** » Thu May 19, 2011 3:03 pm

Well, my English-French French-English dictionary only lists "archaism" either way, ultimately from Greek "ἀρχαϊσμός" (imitation of the ancient).

Yng · Post by **Yng** » Thu May 19, 2011 8:15 pm

Likewise, I've only ever heard archaise and archaism.

Although seriously - the norm in your 'corner of the Midwest', Viktor? Do people around where you live regularly talk about archaisms?

Nortaneous · Post by **Nortaneous** » Fri May 20, 2011 8:49 am

spats wrote:The "correct" formations:

Archaism (AmE /arke(j)Ism/)
*Archaize (AmE /arke(j)aIz/)

Because of the odd hiatuses, it may be easier for some speakers to take "archaic" and just add the -ism and (especially) -ize endings:

What odd hiatuses? The affixes are stressed on their respective first syllables, so the last syllable of the root loses stress and the /e/ reduces to /i/. I don't really think /iai/ and /iI/ are that odd, especially since [j] can be inserted.

din · Post by **din** » Fri May 20, 2011 10:11 am

I say Archaism myself, and I can't honestly say I've ever needed a word like archaise before. It doesn't surprise me that people would go for Archaicize in that case. I would.

TomHChappell · Post by **TomHChappell** » Fri May 20, 2011 11:52 am

How about the verb "to antique"?

LinguistCat · Post by **LinguistCat** » Fri May 20, 2011 12:54 pm

TomHChappell wrote:How about the verb "to antique"?

To me, this implies either shopping for antiques, or to make something look artificially worn...

linguoboy · Post by **linguoboy** » Fri May 20, 2011 3:56 pm

vampyre_smiles wrote:
TomHChappell wrote:How about the verb "to antique"?
To me, this implies either shopping for antiques, or to make something look artificially worn...

WHS, although in reverse order of preference. For the former I'd be more likely to say "to go antiquing".

Too bad you can't make a humourous neologism parallel to "embiggen". I think it's the vowel initial, screwing up the syllabification, that dooms "enolden".

Soap · Post by **Soap** » Fri May 20, 2011 5:31 pm

Ive never heard 'archaise' spoken out loud either correctly or incorrectly, so cant help there. But to Drydic_Guy: is it possible youre just remembering one person or a group of people who may have picked up one person's wrong pronunciation?

Drydic · Post by **Drydic** » Fri May 20, 2011 7:25 pm

Soap wrote:Ive never heard 'archaise' spoken out loud either correctly or incorrectly, so cant help there. But to Drydic_Guy: is it possible youre just remembering one person or a group of people who may have picked up one person's wrong pronunciation?

Apparently. But it's also apparent that I wouldn't be the only one.

zompist bboard

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