Classical Composers
- Salmoneus
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Classical Composers
I know, I know. My previous attempt to do an intro to classical music was insanely long and pedantically detailed and nobody really cared and it never got anywhere.
The general intent, however, remains: perhaps people might listen to more great music if "classical music" weren't a colossal creature sprawling over 400 years filled with dozens of names that mean nothing to most people, and into which there are few easy entry points.
So this time, I've skipped ahead. What I intend to do here is just tell people about classical composers. What I'm going to do is organise composers into a rough hierachy of tiers, starting with the best and most essential, and working down into examples of less significant composers, with, accordingly fewer and fewer words as you go down the list. The idea is that people can get a sense of who the significant figures are, their relative level of significance, and what sort of music they wrote. If anybody's interested, they can then investigate in more detail on their own time.
So to start with, I'm going to talk about the Trinity. These are, by far, the most important composers, with large oeuvres of masterpieces spanning many genres, so I'm going to do a detailed post on each one of the three. After these, the word count will reduce exponentially with each 'tier'. I'll hopefully do at least four tiers, but after that I may just list some names.
Anyway, if this is of any interest to anyone, please do say, since otherwise I may just get bored and abandon it (again). Also, if anyone has any comment - on the posts or the music - or questions, please do contribute!
Now, to start:
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Tier 1: The Holy Trinity
There is no consensus on the identity of the greatest ever composer. However, in any list of, say, four or five of the greatest composers, from any vaguely reputable observer, three names will almost universally appear, fixed in the firmament for a century and a half or more, as their rivals have gradually fallen by the wayside with the fluctuations of fashion: Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven. Classical music fans, in discussing these three, frequently stray into an almost (or even explicitly) religious vocabulary: they are not merely heroes, but demigods of supernatural ability. The idea of the three as a divine trinity is strengthened by the differences between them: they seem not only to represent the highest achievable human excellence, but to represent three different visions of the nature of excellence. As SF author Douglas Adams famously put it: “Mozart tells us what it’s like to be human; Beethoven tells us what it’s like to be Beethoven; Bach tells us what it’s like to be the universe.”
The general intent, however, remains: perhaps people might listen to more great music if "classical music" weren't a colossal creature sprawling over 400 years filled with dozens of names that mean nothing to most people, and into which there are few easy entry points.
So this time, I've skipped ahead. What I intend to do here is just tell people about classical composers. What I'm going to do is organise composers into a rough hierachy of tiers, starting with the best and most essential, and working down into examples of less significant composers, with, accordingly fewer and fewer words as you go down the list. The idea is that people can get a sense of who the significant figures are, their relative level of significance, and what sort of music they wrote. If anybody's interested, they can then investigate in more detail on their own time.
So to start with, I'm going to talk about the Trinity. These are, by far, the most important composers, with large oeuvres of masterpieces spanning many genres, so I'm going to do a detailed post on each one of the three. After these, the word count will reduce exponentially with each 'tier'. I'll hopefully do at least four tiers, but after that I may just list some names.
Anyway, if this is of any interest to anyone, please do say, since otherwise I may just get bored and abandon it (again). Also, if anyone has any comment - on the posts or the music - or questions, please do contribute!
Now, to start:
------------
Tier 1: The Holy Trinity
There is no consensus on the identity of the greatest ever composer. However, in any list of, say, four or five of the greatest composers, from any vaguely reputable observer, three names will almost universally appear, fixed in the firmament for a century and a half or more, as their rivals have gradually fallen by the wayside with the fluctuations of fashion: Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven. Classical music fans, in discussing these three, frequently stray into an almost (or even explicitly) religious vocabulary: they are not merely heroes, but demigods of supernatural ability. The idea of the three as a divine trinity is strengthened by the differences between them: they seem not only to represent the highest achievable human excellence, but to represent three different visions of the nature of excellence. As SF author Douglas Adams famously put it: “Mozart tells us what it’s like to be human; Beethoven tells us what it’s like to be Beethoven; Bach tells us what it’s like to be the universe.”
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
Re: Classical Composers
I don't think so - not only was it pretty good, but you also completed it!Salmoneus wrote:I know, I know. My previous attempt to do an intro to classical music was insanely long and pedantically detailed and nobody really cared and it never got anywhere.
Re: Classical Composers
I really liked the previous classical music series, and I'm happy to see new content.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
kårroť
kårroť
- Salmoneus
- Sanno
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Re: Classical Composers
Well, I completed the bit that was meant to just be a quick intro to the actual thing...Raphael wrote:I don't think so - not only was it pretty good, but you also completed it!Salmoneus wrote:I know, I know. My previous attempt to do an intro to classical music was insanely long and pedantically detailed and nobody really cared and it never got anywhere.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
- Salmoneus
- Sanno
- Posts: 3197
- Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
- Location: One of the dark places of the world
Re: Classical Composers
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
Re: Classical Composers
Just coming out of lurking to say that this is very interesting stuff. Thanks a lot!
I've always had an interest in classical music as it's something that so many people derive so much joy from, but I always found it to be quite an inaccessible world, not being raised in a musical family. Now that I'm learning piano (mostly improvisation on chords though, no classical music or note-reading) and getting some background in musical theory, this is even more interesting. I'll be following this thread.
I've always had an interest in classical music as it's something that so many people derive so much joy from, but I always found it to be quite an inaccessible world, not being raised in a musical family. Now that I'm learning piano (mostly improvisation on chords though, no classical music or note-reading) and getting some background in musical theory, this is even more interesting. I'll be following this thread.
- Salmoneus
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Re: Classical Composers
If you don't mind me asking, what do you find inaccessible about it? Is it the music itself, or the sheer scale of the repertoire, or something to do with the culture? Or the terminology?Junes wrote:Just coming out of lurking to say that this is very interesting stuff. Thanks a lot!
I've always had an interest in classical music as it's something that so many people derive so much joy from, but I always found it to be quite an inaccessible world, not being raised in a musical family. Now that I'm learning piano (mostly improvisation on chords though, no classical music or note-reading) and getting some background in musical theory, this is even more interesting. I'll be following this thread.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
Re: Classical Composers
It's mostly the music itself, though I'm also a bit intimidated by the culture, which sometimes comes across to me as "you have to like this, otherwise you are an uncultured barbarian".Salmoneus wrote:If you don't mind me asking, what do you find inaccessible about it? Is it the music itself, or the sheer scale of the repertoire, or something to do with the culture? Or the terminology?
I think classical music is sometimes inaccessible to me because of the length of the many of the pieces (I simply don't have the patience), the lack of 'hooks' and refrains and the complex melodies. Basically, it's years of listening to pop music that make me expect short pieces and easy, catchy melodies. I have the same for some more free form jazz. It's probably just lack of exposure and getting used to. Generally, I find that orchestral works are the most difficult for me, because they are kind of a blur to my untrained ear. I like piano and vocal pieces.
I do love some of those pieces by Bach, e.g., the Toccata and fugue in D minor, some of the parts of the Matthew and John passions, e.g. Herr, unser Herscher, Wir setzen uns mit Tränen nieder, Buss und Reu, Erbarme dich, the Goldberg variations (though it's been a while since I listened to them). As for other composers, I generally like what I know of Beethoven (not much, greatest hits such as the Moonlight Sonata and the opening of the fifth) and Chopin and don't know much of the rest.
- Salmoneus
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Re: Classical Composers
That's very fair. [conversely, I find pop music irritating because as soon as I start to like a song, it ends, and either I have to start the process all over again, or else I have to repeat the song, in which case why not just have it be longer to begin with. Pop music seems to require much more concentration than classical music - blink and you'll miss it!]Junes wrote: I think classical music is sometimes inaccessible to me because of the length of the many of the pieces (I simply don't have the patience)
I think it's very useful, particularly with things like symphonies, to have classical music on in the background while reading (or whatever else you do that doesn't require your ears). That way, you can ingest the music without getting bored. This works better with some music than other music, of course (some things are too attention-seeking to make good background music). I tend to find that if I listen to something in the background first, I find it much more interesting and accessible when I hear it again.
That said, I think people can overestimate the length of classical pieces. There are a lot of short classical works, and the longest ones (ballets, operas, masses) are actually more like albums of short pieces. Even the big, cohesive works - symphonies, concertos, sonatas - are usually broken into movements, which generally run only 5-15 minutes depending on era and genre. Which is longer than most pop songs, but in the same area as quite a few popular pop music songs (songs like Inna-gadda-da-vida, Bohemian Rhapsody or American Pie are longer than most symphonic movements).
But yeah, maybe Mahler isn't for beginners.
This is something I see the other way. One reason I find it hard to get into pop music is the lack of, as you say, 'hooks', and recognisable, hummable tunes. Indeed, I've been thinking recently that pop music seems to be becoming more and more like mediaeval chant - more reliant on flat, reciting contours, rather than on tunes. For this reason, a lot of the pop music I do like is the sort that still has catchy ostinato bass patterns ('riffs'?), which are very Baroque in feel., the lack of 'hooks' and refrains and the complex melodies.
Interesting! I tend to think of vocal music as being less accessible, compared to the richer timbres of the orchestra - and because I assume that the differences in style between amplified and unamplified singing would outweight the common presence of the voice. Maybe I'm wrong, then!
Basically, it's years of listening to pop music that make me expect short pieces and easy, catchy melodies. I have the same for some more free form jazz. It's probably just lack of exposure and getting used to. Generally, I find that orchestral works are the most difficult for me, because they are kind of a blur to my untrained ear. I like piano and vocal pieces.
Great! I think Bach both is and isn't good for newcomers - isn't, because a lot of his music is dry and... uncatchy... but is, because he does tend to have a lot of short pieces with recognisable "riffs".I do love some of those pieces by Bach, e.g., the Toccata and fugue in D minor, some of the parts of the Matthew and John passions, e.g. Herr, unser Herscher, Wir setzen uns mit Tränen nieder, Buss und Reu, Erbarme dich, the Goldberg variations (though it's been a while since I listened to them).
Then I hope I will be able to suggest some new areas of research for you!As for other composers, I generally like what I know of Beethoven (not much, greatest hits such as the Moonlight Sonata and the opening of the fifth) and Chopin and don't know much of the rest.
[update: will do a post on Mozart shortly. Then it might be a while while I do Beethoven. After that, it should get a bit quicker.]
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
Re: Classical Composers
Classical styles of singing do take a bit of getting used to if you're used to popular music, but it's something I've come to appreciate over the years. The vocal pieces often have clear, recognizable melodies. It helps that the St. Matthew's Passion is a Big Thing here around Easter, so it's hard to escape it if you travel in at least somewhat cultured circles.Salmoneus wrote:Interesting! I tend to think of vocal music as being less accessible, compared to the richer timbres of the orchestra - and because I assume that the differences in style between amplified and unamplified singing would outweight the common presence of the voice. Maybe I'm wrong, then!
Another piece I really love is Dido's Lament by Purcell, especially this interpretation by Simone Kermes. It's quite possibly the most beautiful song I know.
Great!Salmoneus wrote:Then I hope I will be able to suggest some new areas of research for you!
Re: Classical Composers
Hey, I cared. I enjoyed it very much, and learned a lot. I also didn't have the time to listen to all of your links, so I didn't comment on it. But it was very instructive.Salmoneus wrote:I know, I know. My previous attempt to do an intro to classical music was insanely long and pedantically detailed and nobody really cared
Funny, the common stereotype goes in the exactly opposite direction. As does your impression on "hooks". Apparently our ears just aren't wired the same way.Salmoneus wrote:Pop music seems to require much more concentration than classical music - blink and you'll miss it!
Are you talking about post-2000 pop music? I tend to take it as a sign that pop music is getting worse and worse because people these days can't write a good melody anymore... but here I'm sounding like an old codger again.Salmoneus wrote: Indeed, I've been thinking recently that pop music seems to be becoming more and more like mediaeval chant - more reliant on flat, reciting contours, rather than on tunes.
I'm speaking only for myself here. There are external, cultural factors that make the music harder to approach. And there are more personal factors.Salmoneus wrote:If you don't mind me asking, what do you find inaccessible about it? Is it the music itself, or the sheer scale of the repertoire, or something to do with the culture? Or the terminology?
External reasons
- I find that most people who write about classical music (thankfully, not you) do it in a very technical or even snobbish way. Most reviews I've read mention very technical stuff such as modulations, counterpoint, etc. Things I have absolutely no clue about. It's hard not to get the impression that "if you haven't studied this stuff at a music academy, there's no point in listening to classical music". By comparison, in rock and pop music, many reviewers have no technical training and focus more on general terms, or on emotions.
- Why can't composers come up with actual names for their pieces? I don't care if the name Moonlight Sonata was invented after Beethoven's death: it's catchier than Piano Sonata No. 14 in C♯ minor Op 27 or whatever. Otherwise, I can't remember which piece is which.
- As you mentioned, the repertoire is huge, with few obvious entry points. Rock critics talk all the time about the "greatest albums ever", about which is the best album by so-and-so: it makes it easy to find what to try first. Most classical writers seem to think everything is equally valuable, and anyway you already know all of Mozart's sonatas and operas, don't you? (I know it's an uncharitable impression, but it's the one I get from afar.)
- Even with a particular piece, the choice is huge. Say, you want to try Mozart's Little Night Music. A critic will tell you that this version is flat and boring, while that one is soulful and passionate. But you can find neither on YouTube, iTunes or your local record store. So what should you do? Track the good one you've heard about? Or just listen to any random version you can find? Things are easier with rock and pop: if someone says you should listen to the Rolling Stones' Sticky Fingers, there's only one Sticky Fingers around, and any decent record store has it. (OK, maybe there's the regular CD and the Deluxe one with tons of bonus tracks. In this case, just don't listen to the bonus tracks.)
- What I've said about technique also applies when I listen to a track. I mean, I genuinely enjoy Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. The main themes are just genius. But even then, I tend to get lost after a point. The same themes pop up again with slight variations... but what do these variations mean? I'm sure that ol' Ludwig put a lot of thought into them, and I'm sure the pianist is really invested too. A specialist can say "hey, here he's making a counter-modulation in the Myxomatosian scale! genius!", and he'll probably be right. But, without technical knowledge, I'm not really sure what's happening here. I end up getting confused, or even bored, until the next movement comes.
- Even worse: when I listen to a piece of classical music, most of the time, I have no clue about what I'm supposed to feel. Like, is it supposed to be sad? Should I be elated? Awed? Moved? Excited? I don't know. Should I just admire this on a purely intellectual level? But I can't, because I don't know the rules of the game. In most cases, I may find a piece pretty, but it fails to trigger any emotion.
Re: Classical Composers
This discussion feels a bit weird for me as someone who likes and enjoys both classical (or, more generally, orchestral) music and stuff from modern genres - although there isn't really anything, in either music or the world in general, into which I'm so much that I could call myself a fan without looking like a poser to real fans. My approach to music, and art in general, is basically "I don't know art, but I know what I like."
For the record, I usually find it a bit difficult to listen to music and do something else at the same time. Either I focus entirely on the music, so that I can't really do anything else, or I focus so much on something else that I don't really notice the music.
Oh, and by the way, I think fans of modern genres can sometimes be as snotty as the snottiest classical music fans. A few times, I made the mistake of answering "rock" when people asked me what music I like. They then usually proceeded to ask me about my rock fan credentials, which (as you've probably guessed if you've read the first paragraph of this post) I don't have.
For the record, I usually find it a bit difficult to listen to music and do something else at the same time. Either I focus entirely on the music, so that I can't really do anything else, or I focus so much on something else that I don't really notice the music.
Oh, and by the way, I think fans of modern genres can sometimes be as snotty as the snottiest classical music fans. A few times, I made the mistake of answering "rock" when people asked me what music I like. They then usually proceeded to ask me about my rock fan credentials, which (as you've probably guessed if you've read the first paragraph of this post) I don't have.
did you send enough shit to guarantee victory?
Re: Classical Composers
This is indeed quite a barrier for beginners. For example, I quite liked the Siciliano piece with the flute that Salmoneus posted. But I was unable to find it on Spotify (though I could find tons of variations, different performers, different arrangements with other instruments). People that know classical music tell me that Spotify is shit for classical music anyway, because of its inconsistent way of listing composers, performers, versions, etc. Which is a pity because I consume 99% of my music via Spotify.Ryusenshi wrote:Even with a particular piece, the choice is huge. Say, you want to try Mozart's Little Night Music. A critic will tell you that this version is flat and boring, while that one is soulful and passionate. But you can find neither on YouTube, iTunes or your local record store. So what should you do? Track the good one you've heard about? Or just listen to any random version you can find? Things are easier with rock and pop: if someone says you should listen to the Rolling Stones' Sticky Fingers, there's only one Sticky Fingers around, and any decent record store has it. (OK, maybe there's the regular CD and the Deluxe one with tons of bonus tracks. In this case, just don't listen to the bonus tracks.)
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Re: Classical Composers
I think you may be looking at analysis, rather than reviews. You can get analysis of any genre (yes, even pop music), but of course most fans don't follow any of it.I find that most people who write about classical music (thankfully, not you) do it in a very technical or even snobbish way. Most reviews I've read mention very technical stuff such as modulations, counterpoint, etc. Things I have absolutely no clue about. It's hard not to get the impression that "if you haven't studied this stuff at a music academy, there's no point in listening to classical music". By comparison, in rock and pop music, many reviewers have no technical training and focus more on general terms, or on emotions.
FWIW, though:
modulation - when a piece of music that begins in one key moves into a different key for a while - that is, it starts using notes that aren't in the original key (so, for example, a II chord is impossible normally, but can be stolen from the dominant key; if you use lots of II chord resolving to V chords for part of your tune, you've modulated into the dominant for a bit). This is common in classical music, but also in a lot of pop music, particularly in classic rock and roll, where the performers would have grown up with classical. The Beatles, The Who, The Beach Boys, etc all use modulation intensively. Common approaches in pop music are the modulation upward in the final chorus, and the modulation into a contrastive bridge section. Modulation can be done very subtly, so it's hard to notice, or it can stick out like a sore thumb. A really striking example would be My Generation, which sustains its edgy, tense tone by markedly modulating upward several times, and never really resolving it. Actually, You Really Got Me is even more striking, as it's basically just the same tune repeated in different keys[/url].
Modulations build tension, make resolutions more powerful, and allow for variation (otherwise you're stuck with only ever using seven chords, only three of which you'll actually use all that much). Modulating between major and minor can also have a big effect on the mood of a piece. In classical music, though, they're more important: a lot of music is basically built upon shifting from the tonic to the dominant and then (eventually) back. More generally, modulations provide richness and unpredictability, drawing out resolutions and allowing more complicated emotions than just BOO! and YAY!.
Of course, if you modulate enough, quickly enough, you can lose track of where your 'home' key was meant to be in the first place. This becomes A Thing in a lot of music from the early 20th century, both classical and jazz, though Bach joked around with it a few times.
Counterpoint: when you create harmony by giving all your instruments a tune to play (often the same tune starting at different times), rather than having them just play chords. This was big in the Baroque, but also used in exceptional circumstances by later composers - it tends to be found at climaxes, as it overstimulates the listener creating stress - it often resolves into more straightforward music for the conclusion. Good counterpoint is notoriously hard: it needs good harmony, good melody, AND the ability to slot them together, which requires either a lot of trial and error or a brilliant mind. Here is an example, with score, of Mozart doing it for an entire piece (it's more common for people like Mozart and Beethoven to just do it for brief passages) - the whole piece is made out of two different melodies interweaving, extended and complemented by other melodic material that's largely derived from them - until everybody comes together for the final line.
Op. 27 no 2, actually! There are two sonatas in that opus, both subtitled 'quasi una fantasia'.Why can't composers come up with actual names for their pieces? I don't care if the name Moonlight Sonata was invented after Beethoven's death: it's catchier than Piano Sonata No. 14 in C♯ minor Op 27 or whatever. Otherwise, I can't remember which piece is which.
Historically, this is because this was an abstract and largely ephemeral art form - people would go see Mozart play his latest concerto, but without recording and with few being able to play from a score at home, it wasn't really important to know which was which, unless you were a major fan or a professional, in which case you remembered. Even things like opus numbers and piece numbers weren't widely used at first. As an analogy: say you want to buy a coat from a noted designer. Fine, you go and ask for their latest coat, or whatever. But the coat is probably not "named" something like "the impression of beams of moonlight upon the waves upon Lake Lucerne" or the like. It's just so-and-so's latest design. If you're really into them, you might call it the such-and-such jacket from so-and-so's 2017 Fall Collection (like it being the A-minor prelude from the opus such-and-such).
But these days, yes, I agree, this is an unfortunate obstacle. That's why the Victorians went around naming everything - but of course, 'everything' is much bigger than they could get around to...
Oh, classical writers know that things aren't equally valuable! Although sometimes it goes without saying: if there's a CD of Mozart and Salieri, and the liner notes say how surprisingly good the Salieri is, it goes without saying they don't mean to suggest it's the equal of Mozart (unless they're being REALLY provocative).As you mentioned, the repertoire is huge, with few obvious entry points. Rock critics talk all the time about the "greatest albums ever", about which is the best album by so-and-so: it makes it easy to find what to try first. Most classical writers seem to think everything is equally valuable, and anyway you already know all of Mozart's sonatas and operas, don't you? (I know it's an uncharitable impression, but it's the one I get from afar.)
I'm surprised you don't think there are entry points, though. There are a lot of classical greatest hits compilations out there, and there are general-listening classical radio stations, with pop charts. ClassicFM, for instance, has its annual, voted-by-listeners "Hall of Fame" - it's not what an academic would list, but it's an intro to the most popular pieces. From there you could move on to greatest hits albums for composers you liked. Then you could find one of the many 'build a classical library', 'essential classical repertoire' etc lists. And go from there.
I think it's much harder to get into pop music. There's pop charts, but that's just what's popular now - and historical charts are what was popular then, but how do you find what's popular now among things that were written then? Without delving deep into critical magazines, I mean. And in classical - well, a Bach fan may not love Wagner, but they've heard of Wagner, at least, and can name some of Wagner's most notable pieces. It seems that pop music is much more siloed.
Just ignore all that. Sure, if you really like a piece, it can be fun finding a version you like the most. But for the most part, it doesn't really matter. Indeed, many of the 'best' recordings are so old that their recording quality is so bad (thin sounds, vinyl static) that I'd rather listen to an ordinary modern version. You will occasionally find a version where they've done something weird, but not normally. The casual listener won't be able to tell the difference on a first listening (it's not like it's filled with improvisation!)Even with a particular piece, the choice is huge. Say, you want to try Mozart's Little Night Music. A critic will tell you that this version is flat and boring, while that one is soulful and passionate. But you can find neither on YouTube, iTunes or your local record store. So what should you do? Track the good one you've heard about? Or just listen to any random version you can find? Things are easier with rock and pop: if someone says you should listen to the Rolling Stones' Sticky Fingers, there's only one Sticky Fingers around, and any decent record store has it. (OK, maybe there's the regular CD and the Deluxe one with tons of bonus tracks. In this case, just don't listen to the bonus tracks.)
[ok, concerti can have improvised 'cadenza' sections, but the point still stands]
Two caveats: do be aware that with older, particularly pre-1800, music, there can be a distinct difference between traditional performances and historically-informed performances (i.e. period instruments and smaller ensembles). In particular, old keyboard pieces do sound quite different on the harpsichord vs the piano. Also, be aware that some solo vocal recordings will be in a thundering, Wagnerian vocal style (i.e. pitched to deafen everyone in a three mile radius) even when it's completely inappropriate, so sometimes recordings by the 'best' singers aren't the best recordings.
But in general: it doesn't matter which version you listen to.
I think you have to bear in mind that classical music isn't really very intellectual - it's much more to do with raw emotion. You don't have to analyse "what things mean" or where the modulations are - you don't have to be "confused". You just listen, and feel.What I've said about technique also applies when I listen to a track. I mean, I genuinely enjoy Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. The main themes are just genius. But even then, I tend to get lost after a point. The same themes pop up again with slight variations... but what do these variations mean? I'm sure that ol' Ludwig put a lot of thought into them, and I'm sure the pianist is really invested too. A specialist can say "hey, here he's making a counter-modulation in the Myxomatosian scale! genius!", and he'll probably be right. But, without technical knowledge, I'm not really sure what's happening here. I end up getting confused, or even bored, until the next movement comes.
The general framework: start at home, go far away (making audience tense), come home again (making audience relieved).
But if you want to know, basically what happens here is: he introduces the Tune (in the tonic); he uses a bit of the tune modulated to another key to bridge himself over to a more distant key where he plays the Other Tune, and that's the A section; he appears to come back to the Tune, but it's just a little bit, and it breaks off into something inspired by the Other Tune instead - this section works as a sort of liberating escape from what's otherwise a restrictive, claustrophobic movement - and that's the B section; then he's back with the Tune in the Tonic; again he uses a bit of the tune while modulating, but this time he's actually not modulating, he's just teasing, and he stays in the Tonic, where he plays the Other Tune again, and that's the second A section. Then he caps it off with a pretty little coda of broken chords. So, ABA. Or if we want to zoom in: XY'-C-XY, where the ' indicates that the first Y section is not in the tonic - but the second is, because that's the Ending. Between each X and Y there's a little bridge made out of an echo of X, and 'C' is made up of material that echoes X, followed by material that echoes Y. The movement is therefore in between "ternary form" (strict ABA, where B has nothing to do with A) and "sonata form" (where B is much longer and substantially breaks up and recombines elements of A - which this gestures toward but doesn't really bother doing at any length). It's actually a pretty good example of how the Classical era worked, actually. On the structural level, at least!
On the more zoomed-in level, of course, it's far, far more complicated, because, with his arpeggios and his rapid harmonic rhythm, he's actually channelling Bach and the Baroque at the chord-by-chord level. Here is a recording with the score, which someone has helpfully annotated to show the actual chord, and which key we're in and what function each chord has in that key at that point - as you can see, he changes really rapidly, which is actually unusual for Beethoven.
What he does that Bach wouldn't be likely to do, though - aside from the large-scale proto-sonata-form, and aside from the fact he uses simpler but more striking key changes - is that over the arpeggios he puts a melody totally at odds with the arpeggios. The arpeggios suggest stasis and calmness, but Beethoven adds that pained/distressed/angry outcry at the top, with a striking cross-rhythm against the triplet, and that sublacustrine, surging/falling motif underneath in the second melody. The combination gives us the strange emotional world of the movement: constrained yet yearning, calm yet under pressure, and the rapid harmonic progression and the adventurous key modulations add to this sense of, as it were, striving to find an escape that cannot be found (Beethoven was going deaf at the time, and the movement is inspired by a murder scene by Mozart, so his thoughts were probably rather morbid). [In place of escape, the brief dance in the second movement offers an attempt at finding happiness where he is, and then the righteous fury of the third movement attempts to tear everything apart].
As I say, both the harmonic rhythm and the specific modulations are unusual here - the Other Tune is normally "meant" to be in the dominant, but here is in B minor (to the tonic C-sharp minor), which is way out there, which is why he needs such prolonged and striking modulation to get there. It's worth bearing in mind that the sonata is subtitled "quasi una fantasia" - "almost a fantasy" (i.e. a formless, improvised piece), reflecting the somewhat improvised feel and the strangeness of harmony, and indeed overall structure (sonatas are typically fast-slow-fast, with the first movement being the 'heavier' one; the Moonlight is slow-medium-fast, and it's the final movement that's the 'heavy' one in full sonata form). This shows Beethoven's experimental inclinations, but even he would only do this in a sonata (a solo piece with an intimate feel), not in something like a symphony (a big public work). Beethoven is usually much simpler than this.
But none of that really matters.
This really surprises me - as I say, I think the big thing about classical music is how heart-on-sleeve most of it is (after the Baroque, at least). Of course, the best music doesn't set out to be Sad or Exciting or whatever - it expresses the complicated, conflicted, human, constantly evolving feelings of its maker. [most long pieces are emotional journeys, not emotional snapshots]. Some of the best music makes you want to smile and cry at the same time.Even worse: when I listen to a piece of classical music, most of the time, I have no clue about what I'm supposed to feel. Like, is it supposed to be sad? Should I be elated? Awed? Moved? Excited? I don't know. Should I just admire this on a purely intellectual level? But I can't, because I don't know the rules of the game. In most cases, I may find a piece pretty, but it fails to trigger any emotion.
But, you can still usually simplify if you need to. For instance, take Junes' link before: can you really not hear whether this is a 'sad' piece or a 'happy' piece?. The Baroque tends to go in more for these when-its-sad-its-sad-when-its-happy-its-happy black-and-white things; later eras prefered more complicated, conflicting and evolving emotions. But I'm surprised you can't get at least the general gist!
Since i've been writing a post on mozart, here's a juxtaposition. This clip (from 'Amadeus') begins and ends with the 'Rex Tremendae' from the Reqiuem: the dreadful face of the divine king of majesty, without weakness or (perhaps) mercy, grinding the listener down on their knees - the harshness of Mozart toward his wife, and Mozart's own inability to escape the disapproving ghost of his father, the confining, obsessive, pacing thoughts that are driving him to his grave and from which he is desparate to find some temporary distraction... and then we pivot straight into a medly of show tunes* from his popular fantasy-comedy, The Magic Flute - jolly, fun, light-hearted, trivial, but also, the film suggests, unhealthily wired, manic, drunken... and then boom, back to the Requiem, because getting drunk doesn't make his problems go away.
*specifically, Das Klinget (the villains are distracted by the magical glockenspiel), Ein Maedchen oder Weibchen (Papageno wishes for a wife upon his magical glockenspiel), and a snippet from the climax of Papageno/Papagena, which does not directly involve a magical glockenspiel but I'm sure it can't be far away.
Can you hear the emotional difference between the Rex tremendae and the Magic Flute songs? Or, staying with Mozart, here's a piece with a big shift inside it: the Confutatis, also from the Requiem. Compare the opening 'confutatis' section, with its ominous trumpets, heart-attack racing string arpeggios, rapid syncopations, and voices that tread on each other's tails, all in the bass... and then the 'voca me', soft, calm, imploring, resolving into the almost mediaeval 'oro supplex'. Do you not hear the agitation, the fear, in the confutatis ("when the damned are confounded and consigned to fierce flames..."), the echo of the damnation he fears, and then some evocation, albeit passing and tremulous, doubting, weak, of the beatitude ("...number me among the blessed") for which he hopes?
Oh, I'm sorry! I didn't mean to give out homework - the idea wasn't that you had to listen to all of each piece before you could comment. The links were just there for the interested reader, and even if you clicked on them I didn't expect you to listen all the way through to each one!I also didn't have the time to listen to all of your links, so I didn't comment on it.
Well, objectively speaking, with a longer piece you don't have to concentrate in the same way - it'll still be there when you turn back to it. Whereas if you're not concentrating 100% on a pop song, if you get distracted, it's over by the time you remember you're listening to it!Funny, the common stereotype goes in the exactly opposite direction. As does your impression on "hooks". Apparently our ears just aren't wired the same way.Salmoneus wrote:Pop music seems to require much more concentration than classical music - blink and you'll miss it!
I don't know enough to put a date on it, but yes, recent stuff. Part of it probably is the lack of musical ability (because, imo, people don't grow up with classical music the way the pioneers of pop music did - each generation emulates the last, losing a little in the process). But also I think it's a legitimate stylistic shift, away from common practice traditions and more toward minimalism. Whethere that's the future of music, or just a passing trend, it's too early to say.Are you talking about post-2000 pop music? I tend to take it as a sign that pop music is getting worse and worse because people these days can't write a good melody anymore... but here I'm sounding like an old codger again.Salmoneus wrote: Indeed, I've been thinking recently that pop music seems to be becoming more and more like mediaeval chant - more reliant on flat, reciting contours, rather than on tunes.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
Re: Classical Composers
Another caveat: Sometimes, with more modern recordings, they completely reorchestrate a piece, or use vocals only, or vocals plus minimal instrumentation, on a piece that originally had a rich orchestration. If you don't want a recording like that, you might sometimes have to be careful to avoid it.Salmoneus wrote:Just ignore all that. Sure, if you really like a piece, it can be fun finding a version you like the most. But for the most part, it doesn't really matter. Indeed, many of the 'best' recordings are so old that their recording quality is so bad (thin sounds, vinyl static) that I'd rather listen to an ordinary modern version. You will occasionally find a version where they've done something weird, but not normally. The casual listener won't be able to tell the difference on a first listening (it's not like it's filled with improvisation!)Even with a particular piece, the choice is huge. Say, you want to try Mozart's Little Night Music. A critic will tell you that this version is flat and boring, while that one is soulful and passionate. But you can find neither on YouTube, iTunes or your local record store. So what should you do? Track the good one you've heard about? Or just listen to any random version you can find? Things are easier with rock and pop: if someone says you should listen to the Rolling Stones' Sticky Fingers, there's only one Sticky Fingers around, and any decent record store has it. (OK, maybe there's the regular CD and the Deluxe one with tons of bonus tracks. In this case, just don't listen to the bonus tracks.)
[ok, concerti can have improvised 'cadenza' sections, but the point still stands]
Two caveats: do be aware that with older, particularly pre-1800, music, there can be a distinct difference between traditional performances and historically-informed performances (i.e. period instruments and smaller ensembles). In particular, old keyboard pieces do sound quite different on the harpsichord vs the piano. Also, be aware that some solo vocal recordings will be in a thundering, Wagnerian vocal style (i.e. pitched to deafen everyone in a three mile radius) even when it's completely inappropriate, so sometimes recordings by the 'best' singers aren't the best recordings.
But in general: it doesn't matter which version you listen to.
Re: Classical Composers
Yeah, every time Sal posts on Classical music, my "Watch Later" list on YouTube triples in size. But it's worth it. I really love your explanations! It's much more than I've ever learned in a music class!
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Classical Composers
This may well be so, but is there anyone out there who genuinely does reviews of classical music? As in, I'm going to sit down and give all of Mozart's work how-many-ever stars out of 5, or something like that? That seems like the sort of thing that is Not Done.Salmoneus wrote:I think you may be looking at analysis, rather than reviews. You can get analysis of any genre (yes, even pop music), but of course most fans don't follow any of it.
I generally forget to say, so if it's relevant and I don't mention it--I'm from Southern Michigan and speak Inland North American English. Yes, I have the Northern Cities Vowel Shift; no, I don't have the cot-caught merger; and it is called pop.
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Re: Classical Composers
BTW as a cellist I'm all for the solo suites, and while I'm like you Sal in usually preferring minor key Bach I've got to admit that I have a soft spot suite 1 and the prelude and gigue of suite 3 (and I can play all those too).
Not like you describe it. There is however a strong current of reviewing different recordings of works (because these can vary immensely, in the same way a pop song can sound completely different when another artist covers it), and BBC Radio 3 has an entire program devoted to that on Saturday mornings.alynnidalar wrote:This may well be so, but is there anyone out there who genuinely does reviews of classical music? As in, I'm going to sit down and give all of Mozart's work how-many-ever stars out of 5, or something like that? That seems like the sort of thing that is Not Done.Salmoneus wrote:I think you may be looking at analysis, rather than reviews. You can get analysis of any genre (yes, even pop music), but of course most fans don't follow any of it.
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Re: Classical Composers
I don't listen to classical music because I don't like violins.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
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Re: Classical Composers
Firstly, a lot if not most classical music does not involve violins (I mean in Bach's output the number of pieces with any kind of string parts are in a minority, most of his stuff is keyboard like harpsichord and organ). Secondly, I'm a cellist, and I don't know whether I'm meant to agree with you in not being a fan of violins or to maybe take this as a comment disliking bowed string instruments in general.Nortaneous wrote:I don't listen to classical music because I don't like violins.
All-in-all it's not a sufficient reason to say you don't like classical music just because the stereotypical classical pieces have violins in them.
Re: Classical Composers
Put post in wrong thread.
ìtsanso, God In The Mountain, may our names inspire the deepest feelings of fear in urkos and all his ilk, for we have saved another man from his lies! I welcome back to the feast hall kal, who will never gamble again! May the eleven gods bless him!
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Re: Classical Composers
To be fair, orchestral music is a big part of classical music, and that would also disqualify string quartets. Which are, admittedly, potentially an aquired taste in terms of timbre. But yes, there's still plenty left, particularly of piano music.
Of course, even with string ensemble, it's still possible to avoid violins! Behold, possibly the most important completely obscure genre in classical music!
Of course, even with string ensemble, it's still possible to avoid violins! Behold, possibly the most important completely obscure genre in classical music!
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
Re: Classical Composers
Maybe it's just me, but Nort's post reminds me of a pun where some parents choose not to send their child to some specific concert because it has "too much sax and violins."
(Pun on "sex and violence")
(Pun on "sex and violence")
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Re: Classical Composers
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!
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Re: Classical Composers
White people came into existence in the year 1918 due to a chemical accident. Before that, Europe was inhabited exclusively by sentient swarms of angry bees.Frislander wrote:Firstly, a lot if not most classical music does not involve violins (I mean in Bach's output the number of pieces with any kind of string parts are in a minority, most of his stuff is keyboard like harpsichord and organ). Secondly, I'm a cellist, and I don't know whether I'm meant to agree with you in not being a fan of violins or to maybe take this as a comment disliking bowed string instruments in general.Nortaneous wrote:I don't listen to classical music because I don't like violins.
All-in-all it's not a sufficient reason to say you don't like classical music just because the stereotypical classical pieces have violins in them.
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.